random fandom thought

I think people who are writing fluffy Seifer are failing to take into account the years of weird upbringing, the inevitable memory issues faced by GF, and his constant failure to live up to expectations, and well, constant failure, period.

He has soft moments because the end of the game proves it, but when people write Seifer singing love songs and making baby talk, Iᾰit's a step, thing. If I watch him go from what we saw in the game to that with no in between, I don't bitch because I don't see him doing it, but because the in between is left out—how he got to the point, the journey.

People are in fandom for different reasons, in the end. Some write what they think they can extrapolate fairly from canon and some write what they want to see without showing how he reached that point. Neither side is wrong—it's just different interpretation. Because I don't care for the latter, I just don't read it anymore, and therefore don't bitch anyone out. ;)

I've disagreed with fanon everything in FFVIII forever though, so what do I know. XD

I think I pretty much second your thoughts. My opinions on characters and FF8 itself have considerably changed, as I went from a teenager to now an adult, and I view things differently. I used to be a lot more accepting with canon, but as I am playing through again, I'm sitting, making notes on characterization. It's disturbing to find out how off my teenage self's fanon was from canon, and I'm glad I'm playing through again, making notes, getting reacquainted with the fanon. I don't think there's anything wrong with fanon, exactly, but like you, it's not my thing anymore.

It's also amazing how I used to love Seifer, and now I'm in love with Laguna. XD

LAGUNA IS AWESOME!! XD

I've found the same happening to me, that the older I get, the more my perception of each character changes. I remember that I used to love Squall as a teen, perhaps because I could identify with his teenage angst. Now, at 21, I find his angst a bit exhausting, and find myself more drawn to characters like Laguna. (Seifer is still awesome, though).

Another thing that signifies to me that I really AM getting old is the fact that I am now able to view relationships from different angles than I used to be. For example, I can now sympathize with Caraway; Rinoa must have been a very difficult child to raise.

Laguna is too adorable.

And I'm a bit of a late bloomer, since I'm a few years older than you, I've had the same epiphany. What I really like about Seifer is his potential. But as heyheyrenay said, the middle parts of his evolution are cut out, and that leaves a wide range of interpretations open for his skeletal characterization. I find Squall a bit too emo now, though I still love him, and I think Zell and Selphie need Ritalin injections. O.o

I've had the same problem. Like, as much as I love Laguna, I can't get over the fact that he is a terrible father. And Caraway certainly had his own issues. And let us not forget the child soldiers issues with SeeD.

I really need to get through the first disc. This game really needs to be re-looked at with an adult perspective. I missed so much when I played it when it first came out.

Whoops, tl;dr

I disagree that "we" (as a fandom collective) don't have access to a fully fleshed out characterization. Having played the game numerous times and also having access to a transcription of the game, I think that anyone who doesn't take the time to consider *why* Seifer might act the way he does (fluffy or otherwise) is just indulging in lazy writing.

The people who want to write Seifer as happy Suzie homemaker are totally entitled to do that but as someone who has engaged really seriously with the canon, I absolutely reserve the right to 1) not read that fic and 2) complain about the shoddy state of writing in our fandom when fics like that surface. As Nay says above, it really fails to take into account what makes Seifer the way he is and also (most of the time!) fails to demonstrate what could happen to change him.

It's the same reason I won't read fic that has an established relationship between S/Z (or pretty much any other characters). The game presents us with a certain vocabulary for "the way Seifer is" and to come across twu wub without an exploration of where ten years of enmity have disappeared to requires a suspension of disbelief that I'm rarely up for.

Seifer is one of my favorite characters (natch) and like Zell I find that he is rarely given due consideration by the people who write him. He's a very complicated and contradictory person. There isn't just one way to develop his motivations and I think that is what makes him interesting. But I also think it's disingenuous to write Seifer as though he's the lead in a John Cusack film. It doesn't take into account the fact that he willingly and explicitly tortured someone he'd known since they were very young. You have to find a way to reconcile those kinds of things in your characterization and it's not always easy.

I feel like if people want to write about the soft underbelly of someone, there are a lot better people to pick from than Seifer. On the other hand, if you want to explore how Seifer goes from prickly cockbag to fuzzywuzzums in 15 simple steps, I will almost always come along for the ride. That is the sort of thing I find interesting!

Additionally, if you *personally* are having issues writing Seifer, I find that writing essays about his motivations and what drives him is a very helpful way to determine for yourself what sort of character you think he is.

Re: Whoops, tl;dr

You know, this is a really good review. I like this statement. It is pretty how much I see Seifer too. The only thing I would like to add is that I do not like when people also ignore his interactions with Fujin and Raijin because it is an important part of his character too.

Re: Whoops, tl;dr

Thanks! I agree that Raijin and Fujin are not really given their full appreciation. They support him all the way until he goes too far and I think that their friendship is totally an important aspect of his characterization. There are not a lot of people who care unconditionally for Seifer.

I will also add: writing Fujin is HARD.

I do think that Seifer's character was done a big disservice in canon, really. We never really get a satsifactory resolution for his character (what I wouldn't have given for a scene in which he and Squall had a heart-to-heart talk!), and we never find out if he had been brain-washed by Ultimecia or just followed her because he wanted to. There are some characters who have it even worse than Seifer though and never even fall into their own character (Quistis). Sigh, the older I get, the more flaws I find with FFVIII's storytelling. Some of the only things that can be said about Seifer is that he is a very proud and ambitious character with a dark side, a certain sadistic streak, and unresolved psychological issues. Everything else is a matter of interpretation -- within reason.

Anyway, so I believe there is a certain spectrum of interpretation that I still find believable and IC. There is a wide variety of just -- how much of an asshole people make Seifer out to be. Interpretations range all the way from failed and misunderstood hero (as in the brilliant Scarlet Fever's My Orphanage to blood-chilling bastard (personally, one of my favorite Seifer characterizations were in DK's Fly ). Now, let me say that I find both of these characterization excellent, and I really, really recommend reading both (My Orphanage is a nearly 300,000 word long Seifer/Zell novel, and Fly one of the most powerful oneshots I've read). I find that both of these characterizations, as different as they are, just work.

There is a limit to how much I'm willing to chalk characterization up to interpretation before I turn up my nose and call it OOC, though. This has mostly to do with simple probabilities: I find it highly unlikely that someone like Seifer, who has pretty much ruined his life in a bout of overambitiousness, and who wants and wants and WANTS so much and yet always failed, would just be a completely fine and stable individual after everything, in spite of what the ending is trying to imply. I just don't buy it. I can accept a wide variety in just how strong his trauma is, but I have a hard time picturing Seifer in only an apron waiting for his hubby to come home without a damn good explanation for why he'd do so, for example.

I don't find it impossible at all that Seifer could one day be a loving boyfriend/husband to someone in the cast, but what I do not buy is him being that way right off the bat. The probability that Seifer would be very guarded after the whole Ultimecia thing is just too high, and there's also the fact that Seifer does not seem to know how to express love or affection. I feel that both of these things need to be addressed in order to get fluffball Seifer.

Just my 0.2 Gil. ^^

I have to add my .02 gil too and agree with several points made in the comments...

Canon is open to interpretation by the perception of the fan involved...whether that is two different fans having two different opinions, or your 15 year old self having a different opinion from your 25 year old self...neither is wrong--if you have the writing skills to back it up! :-)

I *love* Seifer evolution fics...(I've even plotted out a couple...who knows I might write one someday). If he hasn't evolved...well, I'm not a fan of the AllBlackNoGood!Seifer...I like to see at least *some* redeeming features :-)

If someone wants to write a fluffy!Seifer story and doesn't want to write the intervening story...I recommend they at least put an author's note that mentions he got therapy (lots and lots and lots) or something! Or just tell us its a PWP and they just wanted to use those characters ;-)

I'm the kind of person who's got a whole ton more to say on Zell, but as far as Seifer goes... I still have some ideas, so, uh, I guess I'll throw in my two cents, then!

To say that all he is is a cocky asshole would be wrong. People have several layers, and so should a good character. There is enough time in the game for us to see that cocky, prideful side of his personality, but all this happened around a major event. We hardly get to see what Seifer is like from day-to-day. Most of what we see is the sorceress' knight, rather than "real" Seifer. There's definitely more to him. The game doesn't really get to show us much, but we at least get to see that he's a bit of a dreamer. He, himself, even mentioned his "romantic dream" (which I found out "romatic" dream of a boy, in Japan, is not the same kind of Western idea of romance), and copied his sword swing from that movie Laguna was in. And then at the end, he looks so happy with his friends... There's definitely more to Seifer than we get to see.

So, as far as fluffy Seifer goes, I feel like it's something that would happen very rarely, and like you said, definitely not in public.

This really is the biggest problem I have with FFVIII. It's my favorite in the series, but I really wish they went more in-depth with some of the characters. There is minimal backstory, and most of it has to do with Laguna. We never find out why the characters joined Garden (except for Zell~), and why Irvine went to Galbadia and Selphie went to Trabia. What happened in that period of time between the orphanage and Garden?

But it's not nearly as bad as Kingdom Hearts. Gawd. I have no clue how anybody can write anyone in OrgXIII.

So yeah. Sorry about the ramble 8D;

well.. personally i think that seifer is just a dick... he isn't a cocky bastard or anything he just likes to prod people in the face :)

just like me :)

i have a seifer CONSTANTLY making dialogue in my head and well... he's the perverted and slightly mean side of me.... but i have murderous sides too...

ANYWAY... i think that seifer is FLUFFY... maybe even more so than zell :O

but that's for another time to discuss because seifer is in fact mean... but just because he doesn't want people to see him as a fluffy cotton ball like zell is :) *squee*

erhm.... i totally lost track of what i was gonna say next... soo....

OH

SEIFER EXPERTS GO EAT YOUR OWN SPIT.... uhm... not a good threat or anything but regardless you can't be an expert on any character unless you are the original creator of the character... which i'm sure 99.999999999999% of us fanfic writers are.... and the ONE PERSON who truly conceived seifer is out somewhere spending his good money while us poor souls try to dig and scrape up what's left of seifer and try to make him into the zell-smex machine... which we're doing pretty well afterall, BUT you can't just being all high and mighty about something that you just did an analysis on.... i've analyzed each character in FF8 and i'm sure the way i develop my characters is vastly different from others :S soooooooo what i will say is that JUST WHO CARES IF SEIFER IS FLUFFY ONCE IN A WHILE.... it is a good break from cocky bastard ya know? <--- ugh... i think i have a raijin in my head too :/

okay. done... :) COMMENTS? x-x

I know I'm super-late to the party, but I would like to voice my opinion on the subject.

I actually think that the largest piece of the Seifer puzzle that we're given in the game are all of his interactions with Ultimecia. To me, they paint him in a light that is often overlooked in fic where people either write him as a very hard and horrible person or as a puppies and rainbows kinda guy.

In all of his interactions with her, the primary thing that comes across to me is that Seifer is still that child from that orphanage. Acting out hoping for attention, bullying the other kids so they'll do what he wants to and what he thinks is best, hoping that someone will love him and want him - as is a common issue with orphans in general. I think more than anything, it was equally Matron he was following as much as he was following Ultimecia. Seifer wants something that he doesn't know how to express - he and Squall were, in my opinion, obviously the two who were most broken by their experiences in childhood, they just responded in different ways.

Now, as far as fluffy Seifer - I don't have a problem with it depending on what level people take it to. Do I ever think Seifer would engage in baby talk? No. Just can't picture it happening. Do I see him having silly moments? Yes. He's friends with Raijin, and from what we saw of Raijin, there has to be some likeable and silly and fun parts of Seifer that only Raijin and Fujin get to see - otherwise, it's really hard to see "Ya Know" hanging out with him for as long as he did. Let's face it, Raijin is a bigger, slightly slower (love him, but c'mon...) version of Zell.

And I'm not one of those people who necessarily needs the author to fill in all the details between when the game ends and when the fluff happens - if someone is writing a one-shot fic and it's fluff, I don't feel the need to rail at the author about how they should've shown the progression. In a fic set three or four months following the game's events? Sure. You need it. In a fic three or four years after the game ended? No. I don't think you need to wade through the angst just to satisfy my curiousity - that's what imagination is for. Often times if I read a purely fluff piece set in the future, I extrapolate on my own as to what happened in the interim. It's not the author's job to hold my hand through every single step of the way if they feel like picking up after all of the catharsis has already occured.

So... lol that's my extremely lengthy way of saying, no. I don't think that the nay-sayers and "Seifer Experts" have the right to jump down an author's throat for exploring the depth of Seifer's character. We were given enough clues in the game to form a core personality for Seifer. It's our job to piece together the bits in between and peek behind the armor. Final Fantasy characters are rarely one-dimensional (Okay, maybe Dio in VII was...) and to assume that any one person can unerringly know the ins and outs of a character that they have not created is arrogant and I think insulting to other authors in a fandom.

Wow. Even my short summation was long lol. Very good question - I really enjoyed reading your post and all of the various points of view that people voiced in reply.

Eh, this party is a constant in my mind, so there's no such thing as being late.

I definitely agree that the Seifer we see is the lost teenager struggling to fit in (in an indirect way) and trying to find someone who cares about him (but not in the emo way).

I don't know. I was just annoyed that some people are think they're Seifer or Zell or Squall or Rinoa or whoever experts and KNOW exactly how he/she would act. I think there's a difference between being mindful of IC-ness and just being a jerk critic.

Exactly! I just feel like there are people out there who feel like the way they determine the character acts is the only way to write the character. And no one allows for growth!

I also end up pretty pissed off when people get all judgemental of fluff fic. Look, no one says you have to read it. I hate Nancy Grace - so I don't watch the bi-atch. End of story. You don't want fluff? Go read something where everyone dies and leave me to my happy ending.

And when people say Seifer doesn't have a silly/light-hearted side? I point to him laughing his butt off when Raijin gets booted off the pier at the end. I think Seifer just has some serious defenses that you need to get around, but I'm not willing to accept that there's no way around them. Why bother writing a character if there's no room for growth?

And yes - I agree with your assessment of him exactly - Seifer would never behave in an emo way ^_^ heh